Choosing Yourself Over Belonging | Ramona Kossowan on Identity, People Pleasing & Finding Yourself

0:00So I stopped blocking and I had this enormous joint meltdown, like this tsunami-sized emotional release because I had been suppressing this for so long and I come home looking a complete rack and my husband's like, are you okay, right? And I'm like, that's when I came to that point. It's like, I hate myself sometimes. And of course he doesn't know that or understand. He just loves me for who I am and thinks I'm amazing, right? And I'm like, this needs to stop. And that's when I started to see things a little differently and I'm like, I'm going to stop chasing. I'm going to allow. I'm going to attract. I'm going to stop chasing. And it did shift my energy.

0:45Hi, I'm Debbie Thompson and this is a Stone in My Shoe podcast. Like a stone in your shoe, we all carry things that quietly shape the way we walk through life. Through honest conversations and powerful stories, we discover the wisdom that's helps us understand ourselves and walk a little more freely. And today's guest is Ramona Kossowan. Ramona is Canada's first certified Gentle Trauma Release Practitioner, a woman's wellness coach and founder of the Renew Method. Through nervous system healing, mindful movement and body-based practices, she helps women move beyond survival mode and reconnect with themselves so they can experience lasting change

1:32from the inside out. She's married with two boys and lives in Alberta. Welcome, Ramona. So lovely to have you on the podcast. Thank you, Debbie. I'm really happy to be here. Yeah, amazing. So before we begin, I'd just love to ground this for the woman who's listening. As she listens to your story today, what do you hope she quietly begins to recognize in herself? I think that it's safe to put down your armor when you've become this resourceful, autonomous woman that you are today, that you needed your armor and your walls at a time when you weren't protected, didn't feel safe or couldn't fully be seen.

2:17And as you create that safety now as the autonomous and sovereign woman that you are, that armor is no longer needed and it can be replaced with just healthy boundary. That's, I really like that. Taking off your armor and just having healthy boundaries. And I'm sure as we go through your stone and your story today, we'll come back to that. I love analogies and I love stories and I love pictures because it's so easy for me to go, yep, armor off, safe boundaries. I'm safe. Lovely. It's unbelievable that way. Yeah, really relate to my two lovely daughters. So before we get into your story today, where are you in the season of your life and what feels most important to you? I'm really leaning into quality of life.

3:03I know that sounds, what does that mean? But even when I think about exercise, my relationship with food, how I'm showing up in my business and with my family, I wanna be able to breathe a little bit. I want to be able to have some spaciousness in my life. Yes, I am busy, but the quality of life and the moment and the connections. So I'm okay with having less connections when the ones that I have are feel nourishing and very reciprocal. I love all those words that you've used, quality and nourishing and connection because I think the Western world's kind of curse is our business and our business hides so much from us. And it's almost the blinkers that stop us seeing our armor

3:51and stop us seeing things. But by quality and spaciousness, you allow yourself to feel and see and receive. So love those words, beautiful. So you're on here for the stone in my shoe and every stone has a shoe. So what's the stone you're sharing today and how would you describe it? I realized at some point, not at some point, a very pivotal point, it wasn't like this mind-blowing thing from the outside but I realized that I really underneath that sometimes was hating myself. I hated myself at times and I just realized I couldn't continue like that anymore

4:36and I wasn't going to continue like that anymore. And it wasn't an instant, sudden everything changed but my trajectory changed and how I was seeing things changed and that opened up different opportunities and another path and allowed me to be more compassionate and self-respecting myself. Okay, so let's go back to, you said there was this pattern of hating yourself. Can you go back to the first, looking back on the journey now, when that first showed up and how it showed up in your life? Was it a voice? Was it how you treated yourself? And then, yeah, let's stop there and then I'll ask you some other questions otherwise it's just too overloaded. Yeah, it started very young, I think like it does for most of us,

5:23just very painful experiences that piled up. A lot of it was with women and girls at that stage and then repeated layer upon layer so that I just felt that underneath who I was really wasn't lovable and lackable and I needed to hide parts of myself but when I came to this point, I was, my children were middle, my youngest was probably just a baby toddler and I was trying to juggle my work, being a mom, living in a small community and feeling very lonely, very alone and I probably drove people away because I felt lonely and nobody wants a needy friend. The vibes just come through and then I was trying to build a little side hustle business as well and it was all just fear driven. Like I was trying to connect with people, it do use the phrase foam all like fear missing out.

6:09Is that a thing? Okay, so I would, for example, insert myself in social situations or circles for fear of missing out on opportunity to finally have some decent friends to finally belong and a lot of it just felt gross to me. It didn't feel good. It made me feel worse. So at some point when I had this kind of epiphany is I'm not doing this anymore. I'm not inserting myself where I'm not going to be seen or understood or I know that there's like whispering's going on behind my back. I'm just not going to do that and it just shifted. It was a subtle shift but it made me see things a little differently. And it's almost opposite of what you're doing now spaciousness quality. It was like fear of missing out. I need to be everywhere

6:56and it's almost this desperation. And as you said, it comes from a totally different energy of receiving and relaxing into it. And how many of us are driven by fear whether it's lack of money, lack of friendships, lack of self-worth, whatever it comes from. But you're right. The kind of energy you're putting out attracts the kind of energy you probably is not good for you. So in a small, I don't know much about Alberta but obviously in a small town, is that hard to find whole new groups of friends? Like how did that work for you in reality? Actually the whole emergence into being a new mom was quite isolating

7:42because prior to that I was living in the city Calgary nearby and I didn't wanna stay there long-term but I had no mom friends of course. I was working full-time and a job that had me busy on weekends. So I didn't really have a tight circle of friends outside of like work friends. And then I became a mom, I had no connections and it was so isolating. And we moved not long after that to this smaller community. And of course there's all those good people but it felt very clicky and like I tried going to mom's groups and I didn't feel like I really belonged anywhere because I went back to work not long around when my son was a year old and I didn't really fit in anywhere. I didn't fit in with the working moms but I didn't fit in with the full-time moms who were talking about things that really didn't feel that exciting to me. I don't wanna get together with moms

8:27and talk about how to scrape the goo out of the side of the dishwasher. They were literally talking about that. I'm like, why are we talking about this? And I just didn't feel like I had a place that felt welcoming to me. So it was a difficult phase. So I'm just wondering if that stone could speak to you now what do you think it would have been saying to you every day during that period? Oh, I think it would be just give myself some grace. Like it's just, it's such a big transition. Give myself grace and allow that the right connection to one's world at the right time. I think I was comparing myself to women in different situations like maybe new someone or their circle of friends for a very long time

9:13or for who were very social. And I'm more introverted in that I don't like to be out there all the time. And I was comparing myself to others and wanting what they had. And I just, I think I needed to give myself some more grace that it is a time of big transition especially going back to work as a new mom. So if the stone could say that it was saying give yourself grace right now but what was, what were you actually hearing? I was hearing that I don't belong anywhere. It was, I don't belong anywhere. And I hate this, I hate all of this. So I'm just going to stop trying. That's what the stone was probably shouting at me. And I guess as well, I don't know but I've been in that situation before

9:59and the way you, the way I compensated was by being busy by achieving by showing that I was good enough in other areas of myself. Does any of that relate to how you were doing things as well? Maybe a little bit later when my second child, my second son was about a year old I actually followed my mom's entrepreneurial footsteps because she actually planted a seed for me in the most impossible of circumstances. And I started to follow in her footsteps but there was a fear behind it, a fear of not getting somewhere fast enough of needing to experience something sooner. So of course, the tighter you grip on things the less they come together.

10:45So that's when I noticed building a side hustle and being a mom and working. It was a lot. If I see pictures of myself I have a lot of bags under my eyes at that time. So your stone was gently trying to talk to you to say be compassionate, give yourself time and you were ramping it up, doing a side hustle, mom of two children, trying to hold it all together. How was your stone reflecting that back to you? Was it just absorbing all of that? I'm curious about the feedback you were getting and whether you listened to it or just pushed it to the side as we often do. I pushed it to the side quite a bit. Once in a while I would connect to go I really need to start doing something

11:32like some meditation or something. Everybody didn't know what to do with all of this. I was carrying a lot of unresolved trauma and it was just taking up a lot in my body. And sometimes I get feedback that I'm intimidating and I'm like, but I'm a nice person, right? But my walls and armor were up. I was not able to be vulnerable really. It's so at one point which I share in my book chapter is I was going for massage. Of course I had a lot of muscle armoring and jaw clenching and body pain. And I was going for a massage and the therapist, the practitioner also did energy work and she asked if I'd like to try that. I'm like, sure, I'm open minded about holistic sort of things. And she's, I feel like you're blocking. I'm like, shit, don't call me out on it.

12:18So I stopped blocking and I had this enormous giant meltdown like this tsunami sized emotional release because I had been suppressing this for so long. And I come home looking a complete rack and my husband, are you okay? And I'm like, that's when I came to that point is I hate myself sometimes. And of course he doesn't know that or understand. He just loves me for who I am and thinks I'm amazing, right? And I'm like, this needs to stop. And that's when I started to see things a little differently. And I'm like, I'm going to stop chasing. I'm going to allow. I'm going to attract. I'm going to stop chasing. And it did shift my energy. And then of course more doors opened over time but that was definitely a point

13:04where my perspective changed. And that's quite a pivotal moment. Going in there, having a massage, doing some energy work, just release. And at that point trusting whatever released and then I go, were you surprised at what came out? Sometimes I hate myself. Or did you quietly know that? Or was it a surprise to you? Well, I quietly knew that. I think I shocked the practitioner because I come in all looking in all cars and then I got it all together. It's just, what did I just, and like it was a messy snot cry, like disaster, right? So it just pointed to me that I had this deep seated need and I needed to just attend to it. And it's interesting how it was that one moment

13:50that massage, that woman who was there, energy, the fact that you trusted to release it. But also that at that point you were ready to go, oh my gosh, I need to do something. Perhaps if you had had that 10 years ago, you would have just brushed it under the, who knows, you get curious about these things. So this was a big epiphany is I have to do something different. I can't carry on like this. The armor has to go. That's new to a lot of people. How did you support yourself in that journey? It wasn't immediate. I didn't really know exactly what to do with this. I wasn't an expert. I didn't have the training and experience I have now and I didn't have the experiences I've had now. But what I did do is I decided,

14:35I'm no longer going to try to insert myself with people or circumstances that make me feel gross. So if this feels gross to me, I'm just going to back, just release it. I'm stopping this fear of missing out. So that was a big one there and just realizing that I needed to enjoy the process a bit more as it's building my little fledgling business at the time. I need to enjoy this a little bit more and let go of the outcome and let it be where it will be. And that was like the beginning. And other things came up in my path along the way that changed my path further organically. And that's interesting because it's almost as though you were shedding before you were rebuilding, letting go of relationships that weren't serving you, giving yourself more time,

15:21almost shedding this busyness and achievement and what are the outcomes? And let's have fun. Let's see where it goes. And so how did that, doing that, how did that make you feel? It felt like relief. It just felt like relief, okay. I can do this. I can let go a little bit. I'm going to be okay. And some interesting things opened up to me too. At one point, I feel like I manifested some things with my little fledgling business at the point where I kind of felt like, do I want to keep going? Am I cut out for these things? It was different than what I'm doing now. But I won a trip and I won some other things. And I knew I'd manifested it because not long after that, I started reading The Power of Intention by Wayne Dyer. I don't know if you've read that.

16:07Yes, I have. But I'm like, oh, shut up. Right? I'm reading that. Shut up. That's what I did. I didn't even realize what I had done, right? But it's no way, right? It was just so affirming. Wow, okay. That's what was going on there, right? And it left me with a deeper connection to my intuition so I could listen to more of those little nudges and move forward when things felt a little bit scary but still felt like a yes. And that's, I'm just going to take you back to that. The intuition is right at the beginning when you said I'm going to not go and meet up with people where I felt gross. Because that's trusting your intuition, that feeling of, oh, I don't belong here. And so often we go to places and it does feel off but you, oh, shut up, don't be so ridiculous. Everybody else is having fun.

16:53How did you learn to really connect to that little inner voice which is your intuition at the beginning? Because this was all kind of new, wasn't it? Yeah, I think, I am a highly empathetic person and sensitive, but I have just walked a lot of it because of growing up in a strict patriarchal, religious household. It may be just show off everything, right? But I started to trust it more and notice it more and connected with different opportunities to further that healing, not rejecting my feminine side, not rejecting my sensitive side and just noticing how my body spoke to me because I'm like, okay, wow, that was a full body yes right there, right? Or that's like a no, right? Practice and being able to be a little more present

17:39with myself. So this was a lot of little things over time just in real life, getting feedback, all that felt good, yes, that was the yes. And then as you said, you were manifesting anyway, you didn't have the actual proper words for it but you were doing all of that which is trusting your intuition and releasing and letting go and because a big one is trust, isn't it? And release. Yeah, it's just, it's interesting because when you no longer care what people think or what they perceive of you, for one, you stop judging yourself and them but they often respond differently to you because you don't really aren't really attached to the outcome. So I found that very interesting. And so did you find that with your friends in

18:24as you let go of this tightly controlling, I need to belong and was I do belong because I belong to myself, did that help? It did, it also helped me to not feel jealous I was always jealous of a couple of friends, couples that go everywhere and travel with all their kids and I didn't have that and honestly, my husband wasn't interested, he's not interested in that. So it wasn't gonna happen anyway. So I stopped being jealous, comparing because I think there was this part of me wanting to make up for not feeling that taller to my younger years. It is what it is, right? So I just started to enjoy what I had more. Yeah, and that's, I think that's so important, isn't it? Is enjoying what you have instead of projecting what you think you might like because it looks and who knows behind closed door what's happening with those people.

19:10As you said, the therapist, you came in you looked like this woman who had everything together bit of energy healing and all this stuff come up. She couldn't have predicted that and people seeing you on the street would never have known that either. So there's so often we think everyone else has got everything together but there's behind the scenes, they could be talking to themselves the same way as sometimes I hate myself, sometimes I don't belong, whatever it is that vulnerability and being honest. And you said right at the beginning about if the stone could talk about being compassion. Did you find that you gave yourself so much more compassion? I did, yeah, I stopped. When I started treating myself with more inner respect to me that feels like compassion

19:57because I'm respecting that part of me that's wanting something or feels like she's missing out or is missing out on a deeply felt need that I'm not gonna go get out from those external sources. That's all internally. So how long did this whole process take of you having the massage and it being revealed so clearly to not just stripping off the first lots of armor but going a little bit deeper. So you had this deep sense of peace and clarity. I connected with a life coach and a business coach in 2017. And for me to invest in a business coach was a very big step

20:42and I had to convince my husband because it was kind of scary to invest in coaching. I'd never done that before but I knew I wanted to grow my business and at that point it had some new certifications and I just was stuck. And this was after kind of a difficulty where my dad had passed away from cancer. So I was sick, had pulled the arrow back and I just like, I'm ready for the next chapter, right? So I felt like she was placed in my path at the right time and that helped me to take that next kind of scary step which was quitting my part-time but going nowhere job, opening the studio behind me and just going full-fly genre. So that was like a fast and furious year and it was really terrifying at times. I was like texting her

21:28before I opened my first group training, balling my face off. Like, again, my body was literally freaking out. I knew I could do it but it was just my body, my unconscious like pushing back intense fear. That was one stage there and that was in 2017. And then it planted my seat in my head about life coaching. Like, cause I knew I wasn't gonna just be a fitness trainer. Like, that's not enough for me, there's something else. So maybe I'll look into life coaching and then the doors opened, the path came in front of me for personal empowerment coach dealing with working with emotions on a deeper level and that opened the door to like the current work with the dental trauma release. So this all happened just before COVID and during COVID it was a very massive time of healing and growth for me

22:16because it was so intense. Like, my business was shut down, the world was nuts, the media was nuts, everybody was acting nuts, right? And it was on top of that, taking this new step that was also terrifying. Again, there's a common theme, terrifying new change and growth, right? So it became apparent to me as I was going through this training that I just, I needed to address some of the pain I was carrying because it's all unconscious and it can't be just talked out of, right? So I did work with my own coach for a couple of months while I was doing my training. And for me, that was a big step because it's very hard for me to vault from for me to be vulnerable. It's easier now, but before it was like the hardest thing you could ask of me is to be vulnerable.

23:02So that was, to me, a huge step to be held with another human in this safe space and release that baggage that was causing so much shame from my body that made my body freak out at the idea of being seen or known. So that was an intense growth phase. That's interesting, isn't it? The first lots of armor go to the first level of growth and then it gets deeper and deeper and this vulnerability. And I wonder why so many of us find being vulnerable so hard and exposing yourself and being seen and all this fear and resistance around that. What is your take on that? I know for me, like the part of me that emerged,

23:47we call it an archetype, like the warrior. She had the sword and shield up and everyone was at arms length from her tender heart. Like her tender true soul was stuffed down in the stellar, protected, right? Because of the experiences that it had, like bad experiences in school, chaotic home, dad who couldn't manage his anger and it was layer upon layer of me retreating further and further back and not being safe. And it just not even it being modeled for me of to be vulnerable, not being modeled for me of how we can express emotions and be authentic without like emotionally dumping or over sharing. But it was a really stepping out of the safety

24:35because that supposed safety was also keeping me unhappy and long. So this warrior, I can see you as this warrior with this sword because you had a lot to protect. And when she had retreated so much, who came, I'm not saying replaced, but which was the other character that came in who could or part of you that could vulnerably share their heart in a safe way? The archetype that I would share from a coaching perspective is woman energy. That was to me, the woman energy in this is meaning the wholeness of me. All the parts, good bad ugly, not just the performative parts. The whole me is equipped to look after me.

25:21The whole me and my woman energy, she is equipped to set boundaries, have standards, stand up for herself, but also show love, give and receive kindness and be seen while also being discerning about who had access to her and what level of access. So that was me coming back to my woman energy. I had to heal the little girl, I had to heal the warrior, I had to bring the little girl safely home. So she stayed with me and I indulge her by taking care of her, having fun and play and not just grinding all the time. So I had to bring those parts back and just take charge of the woman energy, which sometimes all collapse because we all do,

26:07but that's okay. That's beautiful. I love the whole image of this woman imagery of the wholeness. It's not just one warrior standing up on the mountain, holding the fort or the overachiever or the controller or whatever. It's this whole part of you that works together so beautifully that you can be the nurturer, but you can also be the one who has strong boundaries and trusting that it's all there and it's all there for you to access. But as you said, depending on what we've been through, what our parents like, what's been modeled to us, it's not that easy to have access to that. So that was a huge transition and you've done some of the work,

26:52but this was like next level taking everything and bringing it up. It's almost, how long did that take? And when you went through it, what was the new, I suppose, messaging that you were getting about yourself? I think one of the big ones is that I don't really have anything to prove and I trust myself to take things as they come and I don't need to hide parts of myself even if it makes other people uncomfortable because the truth is I can be pretty cringy sometimes. I can be a little out there and it might make people uncomfortable if they think that I'm just this buttoned up version of me,

27:39but no, it's okay. They're along for the ride. They'll get comfortable with it in time. And that's, isn't that lovely that you're not trying to morph yourself into what other people expect of you and society and whoever, but this is me, the whole part of me. I'm not just allowing you to see some of the parts and I think women are so good at allowing people to see certain things that are deemed acceptable. And I guess when we hide things like shame, people pleasing and survival patterns just get stronger and stronger, don't they? Yes, it just keeps going on repeat. It's unconscious. For me, I knew that the shame was attached to trauma, which is that's where trauma resides and hangs out, shame and guilt.

28:25And when I was able to get that baggage off my back, so to speak, let that down, no longer mine. And I felt free again. I could also talk to the warrior and let her know she could put her gear down, the sword and shield. And she's a child, so she can go play. She can go run free in the grass, be a wild child, get dirty, play with rocks and sticks, whatever it is that she wants to do and she doesn't need to take care of me. That is so powerful is when that warrior of or whoever it is, the controller is allowed to just be a child and run off and go, I've been waiting. I've been waiting for whatever many years. I'm done with this.

29:10And they're relieved, you're relieved. Everybody's relieved. And it's this beautiful synergy of this person who was such an intricate part of your world and kept you safe for so long. But now that you've healed and you've done all this work, is no longer needed. Yeah, and it's not like this clean thing where you just emerge and it's all done. No, it goes in little bits and bytes and forward, backward. It felt unnerving. It's like you're stepping out of the deep dark woods into the bright sunlight, very, and there's also grieving. So I had to make space for grieving. The little girl that did not feel safe, did not feel lovable, did not feel worthy in what should have been and could have been that is it going to be?

29:56So I gave myself space for that grieving and it was actually a time of intense grieving as well. Yeah, and it makes sense because there must be regret as well. This little girl could have had this different life and yet it didn't. And you have to move through that. Otherwise, you get stuck in regret and oh, it's not fair and it shouldn't have been like this. And then you don't allow this little girl to go out, as you said, drop the warrior and just go and play with the sticks and stones and be free and have fun. And then that resonates with you because it's you letting go, you having fun, you being more in the moment. Yeah, so I still need to indulge my little girl, right? I need to play, I need to be carefree,

30:43I need to be silly regardless of my age. While knowing that the woman in me is in charge, she doesn't need to step up. Such powerful stuff, isn't it? It's, it seems so simple. It does seem so simple, was this internal family systems or what framework were you working with? Lauren's going through my personal empowerment coaching with the SWAT Institute. The founder, one of the parts of the curriculum was her book, it's called The Emotional Edge and she, we were learning about the archetype. So the main overarching theme was woman energy, so empowered self and then daughter or child or mother or parent. So I also have a dominant mother energy archetype. So the child or the mother, they are not empowered

31:31and but they're like a fragment of you. So that was part of that applied teaching with the SWAT Institute. And it merges very well with the trauma work because they're always showing up for a reason. They're always showing up to keep you safe. They always have good intentions. They're just not really empowered to do that. So what was their name? If anyone's listening and they want to find more about that, what's the name of the, or where can they find that information? The book is called The Emotional Edge by Crystal Andrus Morissette. And those are things that I incorporate into my coaching with women as well. Beautiful. And we will put a link to your coaching as well below so if anyone wants to get in touch. Of course. So just what a story and what enormous growth

32:19and thank you so much for sharing some of the ways that you got there because often people are like, yeah, I have these feelings, but what do I do? What's the next step? Not doing it alone and taking your time being compassionate, going through the stages of grieving, just allowing yourself time to go through the process is really important. So for the woman listening today, if she is still holding onto the belief that you have to be strong and hold everything together and show up in a certain way, what would you gently encourage her to become curious about? I would however consider, if I wasn't in this role, if it didn't make me a bad person, if no one could be hurt or disappointed,

33:06what would I want? Because sometimes women go years and decades without actually connecting to what they want. I've asked women what they want and they cannot answer that question so much that it frustrates them to tears. And this is just a pattern. It's not a character flaw. And you can think about what something I might do to move towards that. But it may not come to you right away but you might have to sit with it and just open yourself up to possibilities. Just because you've functioned a certain way before does not mean that you can't decide that it doesn't work for you anymore. It doesn't matter if people will be disappointed because ultimately the ones who were there for you are going to go on this journey with you as you claim your whole self and go through a little bit of a transition.

33:52Yeah, so it's being curious but also being a little bit courageous as well because some of it's gonna feel a little bit uncomfortable. Yeah, and it's okay to not act immediately. You can just entertain the idea and get the creative downloads. Give yourself space because if you're busy 24-7 you won't get the creative downloads. So that's something where you can lean into who would I need to become to have that experience or to create that life. You're not gonna just necessarily flip a switch but it's just inviting curiosity so the next step might open up to you. And that's lovely because it takes a pressure off. It's about being open and curious and without having deadlines and outcomes and goals which is so pushed on us from our society.

34:38So that's a beautiful gentle way of getting started. And if she remembers just one thing from your story what do you hope she takes with her today? I like to tell women that anything's possible. Just because you've existed a certain way or felt a certain way or a pattern has shown up I like to think about lighting the way like holding the torch like anything's possible. You don't need to become a performance machine to make things happen but when it's felt deeply like intuitively like a body yes and you stay open in my experience the path opens up even if it's only the first thing and you don't know where it's going but when you allow that spaciousness

35:24connecting back to you even if it feels out there. It's okay. Most of the things that have happened in my life I did not pre-plan. The door opened at the right time when I was more connected to myself they're trusting that I can take things as they come. Yeah and I think that's a really powerful one too because how much of what we do we control in our lives anyway like a fraction but being open to possibilities and ourselves intuitively it gives us so much more fun power, connection and all the things that we're looking for. And you're gonna have a lot more fun along the way too and that's kind of the point. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Well thank you so much for your time today.

36:10Thank you for being thank you to the divine feminine in you who could encompass all of that and be so vulnerable and share so many of those truths about how we live in the wisdom as well. So thank you Ramona, I appreciate that. Yeah, thank you for this conversation and the opportunity to share. Pleasure. So for the person listening perhaps it was a moment today you recognize something in yourself and if it was there just stay curious because sometimes another woman's story helps us finally see our own. Thanks for listening.