When You Can’t Feel Anything Anymore with Sanna Atherton

0:00I was sitting on this balcony. We had moved off the boat at that point, living on land. This beautiful, I don't know, quite lazy looking white building, very beautiful garden with tropical flowers. I was looking at the bay, the blue water and the boats and the palm trees and the blue sky and well it's actually turning pink because it was kind of sunset time. It was just the most magnificent beautiful dreamy scene and I felt nothing and I thought to myself this is surely not right. Like how many people on this planet would see this and think that there is no more paradise like life that could exist on this earth and I feel nothing. Wow and this feeling nothing,

0:47was this in your whole body, was this in your chest? Where did you feel it and how did that, I mean hitting you like that, I feel nothing. How did you feel and yeah just talk me through that. Devastated Debbie, devastated because I would have liked to think that I am a grateful person that I understand my blessings, that I can, yeah that's actually it. I really believed to be a very grateful person and clearly I was not because I could not feel anything, I couldn't feel gratitude, I couldn't feel joy, I couldn't feel satisfaction, I just literally couldn't muster up any feeling

1:37of genuine appreciation, genuine satisfaction, like nothing. I was just sitting there feeling absolutely numb. Hi I'm Debbie Thompson and this is A Stone in My Shoe, the podcast where we explore the moments in life where something no longer feels quite right and what happens when we choose to listen and today I'm joined by Sanna Atherton who works with the body and nervous system to help people find calm, clarity and presence again with over 25 years in health and a life that has spanned continents, motherhood and even crossing an ocean by yacht. Her work is deeply

2:27shaped by her own experience of pushing through and staying busy. Welcome Sanna. Oh thank you Debbie, so fun to be here with you. Oh lovely to have you all the way from Ireland to a caravan in Australia. I'm doing this while I'm traveling around Australia. Oh god I love this way we can connect with anybody anywhere these days. Yes it's magic isn't it? So Sanna before we go into your story I just want to frame this for the woman listening. When she finishes this episode what do you hope she understands differently about herself and what she might begin to notice after hearing your story? That some of those things that we admire about ourselves some of

3:14the things that we take pride in might actually be even toxic that's a strong way to say it but really holding us back. So being real, being honest and accepting of the truth of now is a worthwhile pursuit. Yes and I think that there were so many things passed on from the previous generations in the patriarchal society of what strength looks like and what achievement looks like and how it doesn't serve us we can go into that as well. Is that what you're trying to say as well? Yes yes for sure. Perfect all right so who are you Sanna just in a few sentences

4:02where you are in your season you know of your life now? Well right now I'm in the midlife season which I'm finding so delicious. My friend my dear friend says it so amazingly it's like we're moving from breeders to leaders and I'm like yes I'll take that. So middle-aged woman I'm a mother I'm an adventurer nature lover all about the essence of things the beauty in the little mundane moments. Yeah I've just recently about a year ago moved yet again to another country so I'm in this exploration phase of a new setting up new life in new parameters and it's

4:49it's a curious time. It's a curious time and it's it's interesting you know adventure and curiosity and the things that hold for me most important things are curiosity and an adventure and optimism and I find as well this is a time that I can really bring these things out and and flourish which is wonderful. So how does that compare to the version of yourself who was pushing and staying busy and can you just compare those two people? The key word that you you named after me curiosity you know eagerness and curiosity

5:36was dialed down a lot it was just about performing really compared to now there is spaciousness to just pause and I keep looking this way because we live on this lake and I can hear the birds out there and I love just watching what the the surface of the lake is doing you know there's just a lot more spaciousness. Yes. The magic of little moments you know. And I think that's that's the key isn't it's a spaciousness to see the awe and wonder in the you know in the simple things in life. So what we're going to do is we're going to talk about the stone in your shoe and then we're going to take you back and then bring you forward to what you did how you noticed it

6:21what you did and and to where you are now in this in this beautiful phase. If you had to name your stone what would it be called and what did it look like? I think it would be named as dullness or flat line that sounds dramatic flat line okay let's do that. Okay yeah yeah you know to be I think this is something shared by many but this pattern of a people pleasing pattern of being able to kind of read the room and and adapt myself to what I thought was the most acceptable version of me and what people wanted to hear how they

7:08wanted to hear it kind of just bringing out that part of the truth and my opinion that would fit you know that that was that was me for very very long time and because I I work with people being liked is kind of useful and being that calm comforting presence when people are dealing with a big pain in their life it's it's it's a bonus right and so even my work took me deeper into that and of course I studied so much I understood so much about you know what would be a nice feeling nice looking kind of life that I actually ended up selling myself this idea of who I was and it wasn't really true it was just a really well

7:58rehearsed mask so this calm and cool and collected persona was just so well rehearsed that I believed it to be true myself. That's so interesting isn't it you know the people pleasing aside and so much of this happens when we're children you know these core wounds that we pick up to keep ourselves safe so looking back on your your childhood and and what do you think you were bringing with you into adulthood that you then added on this perception? I grew up in in a home with addiction and violence so it was very it's easy to understand that I learned to not make waves I learned not to be sort of seen in a wrong way was trying very hard

8:48to be good enough that things would stay calm if if I'm just a little bit better and if I just do this right then maybe things will be okay and maybe you know that kind of tiptoeing through every day so I think this this is it right just making sure that I'm good all the time but nobody can be no I was going to say and not just being good this was this was unsafe for a for a little girl to survive you needed to be small your voice couldn't you couldn't have big emotions because everybody else around you had them so it wasn't safe to feel what you were actually feeling so everything had to be dialed on news as you said people pleasing to to make sure um and you know the interesting thing is we don't even know these are going

9:36with us into adulthood so talk me through um you know this this little girl who who went through then as an adult um you know needed to be you know wants to be like created this life tell me more about what this amazing life that you curated uh looked like and and and what kind of age were you were you doing this from so maybe I'm not sure if this is exactly true but this is what kind of comes up now as a version of the truth at least that when I was 18 I realized that I didn't know how to have dreams I was just going day by day and I didn't have any

10:23any dreams you know so I moved to London as a lot of young people do I supposed to go and to see what else is out there and find my myself and I liked the people around me that were really wild and free and so I kind of became this chameleon that just found the kind of people that looked and sounded and felt like I wanted to to feel so in a way I suppose I found my own dream through them but it was still this comparison thing I was constantly looking from the outside who I should be and so we so we went so I became this courageous adventurer who could just make a decision we're going to move thousands of kilometers this way set up life then we're going

11:13to move thousands of kilometers that way set up life so I became this just this brave person who would do anything and just be all right and prior to this were you I mean you were obviously brave growing up in the childhood the house you were but prior to this would you have called yourself brave or courageous or adventurous no no no I don't think so because I was you know then I was also bullied at school quite a lot so I was so aware of just pretending to be okay all the time not letting anybody see how much I was hurting that I did not feel brave all of my energy was going into to touch this show of being cool being okay so

12:03landing up in this place but all these amazing people and you know most people I'd love to travel the world gosh that's my dream so you land up in what many people would call a dream life yeah yeah tell me what happened then so are we I was skipping into my flat lining faster all the way there well we don't have to let's keep going on your story we don't have to go because often the stone is many different things along the way many different versions of things until it eventually can no longer be ignored right yeah yeah yeah that's true so let's go to the next step hmm so I guess I thought I I knew now all of a sudden to to have dreams but

12:52instead of like a clear goal or a clear vision I ended up going on this magical mystery tour of just from one shiny thing to the next let's call it that like oh we want to take a year out of life and London is starting to feel a bit worn out after eight years there so my now husband and then partner and I would like oh well let's just move to Croatia for a year and see what's what happens and you know so we ended up just sort of bouncing from one nice looking adventure to the next until we ended up in South Africa and decided to settle down a little bit and have children um and then I realized that okay I am ready to have an impact I'm ready to to do

13:39something useful so I set up a clinic and got to work and became that responsible person that would just day in day out help others um as well as taking care of my children and yeah I think that clinic was was that um what are your sorry what are your background is it a psychologist or a counselor or what what kind of clinic just tell me a little bit more about that so that was um for Oriental Medicine when I left Finland I was a practical nurse specialized in mental health but then in my early years in the UK I I studied Oriental Medicine that's what saw me through some of my own um issues beautiful so yeah that's that's what it was

14:27and uh yeah so I had young children and had the clinic and then the children grew a little bigger and we realized that we didn't want them in mainstream schools so what are our options well okay let's build a school so we build a democratic school for them alongside so I was really full on in all of these different aspects of my life um so there wasn't much space for for me as a woman or a person or you know it was just all responsibilities and being this pioneering way shower you know I was the only one with the that kind of alternative approach in the community and then this alternative school and almost like help bent on just being

15:12different while wanting to you know I lived in a very conservative small town I had dreadlocks long dreadlocks so in all different ways I was a pioneer and stood out while desperately wanting to just blend in at the same time so there was this crazy contrast and conflict yeah it's so interesting isn't it is um you know this sense of belonging um but also being different so that you can be seen and valid and and um and having it so there's there's a balance because I know White River where you are and how conservative it is so for these people looking in at you where they're like oh my gosh look at her she's so amazing she can set up schools she has a clinic

15:58she travels the world were you getting a lot of your kudos and who you you know you're um I suppose you're being valid from externally as well people were trying to give it to me people were trying to tell me that I was enough my friends could see me and clearly I wanted to be seen even if I thought I didn't want to be seen clearly I wanted to be seen who goes and does that kind of stuff if they don't want to be seen and my my dear friends were trying to point out to me all these things that I was achieving and doing and how it was enough and how it was well and I never felt it I would literally get through something very challenging and accomplish something amazing and go that was nothing or it it wasn't a big deal it was easy like anybody could have done that next so I

16:44could never never pause to to enjoy anything at all it's like an insatiable monster isn't it that just keeps and then the bigger the accomplishment the more than the monster needs next time yes absolutely yeah so I wasn't really doing it maybe I was doing it to to show other people that I was enough but yeah I certainly didn't feel it quite a it's very draining hmm and I wonder how many women go through their days like that's a snowballing from one thing to the to the next without ever giving themselves a little like well done and also uh you know with the eyes of the world on them and their you know their peers and whatever am I being a good enough

17:30mum am I you know and then there's the other side of you your adventurer am I getting enough of you know what I want and trailblazing and um and it's insatiable and it goes on and on and on and so were you exhausted did you feel exhausted how did you feel because that's a lot of balls you know compared to most people that is a lot of balls you were juggling yeah yeah and at one point I almost I almost crashed I was really really on the brink of crashing but then um as the universe tends to deliver to us things when we are ready for them 13 years ago uh t re trauma release exercise came into my life and it got me back on my

18:17got me back on my feet so what is what is what is t is it t re t re trauma release exercise okay it's this simple set of exercises that triggers a neurogenic tremor reflex in the body and we can shake off our stress and our um you know all the excess energy that's been stored in the body without having to think about it or go into the story or you know know what is going on to surrender the whole process to the body and that suited me so well because I was not interested in talking about things no is that something well sometimes it's very difficult to talk about it because sometimes you don't even know what it is and it's so deeply hidden and so deeply embedded in your body that you don't you know so many women I know I'm one of them I didn't even know I had

19:03stones in my shoes because I was covering them up with being a good wife a good mother a good you know this achieving achievement she's achieving she's doing well she's happy you know she's she's got nothing so this did this come into your life something that you were teaching other people or something that you went and and got then started working with other people yeah it was for me first everything that I've ever done is for me first even the Oriental Medicine I got my treatment first and I'm like this is what I want to do Tiari I did my own thing for six months first for me and then I'm like okay I'm ready to share this with others so what did that bring out was that the thing that brought the stone in the shoe or what was what was what did that bring up

19:50well it it it showed me that nothing on the outside needs to change for me to feel better that it's truly an inside job but somehow somehow I managed to just get even better at I got even better at you know coping and taking on more and you know so in a way I still managed to to kind of go around the actual issues and now I now I just had more capacity to to keep on going so all even bigger adventure came my way like long long long time ago when my husband the first time he crossed the Atlantic Ocean I was listening to his stories and I'm like you are bloody mad like who in their right mind would

20:39do that I cannot think of anything worse than that like that is literally like my worst nightmare then not that many years later I find myself backing up my life and my children onto this tiny little boat to do exactly that so my that that fierce monster of bigger of more I'll show the world I can do this I'll show you all I can do this it just got ridiculous I mean completely out of out of hand so all of this all of this engaging myself in something even bigger to overcome and solve and stand strong in it was also a flight response I was running away even harder you know I was so close to seeing what it is that stone in my shoe I was so close to all of those

21:29deep wounds that I had to run really really really fast and up high mountains so do you think you ran further because getting close to the stone would have been so uncomfortable and so difficult that it was easier to just shoot it away use this this you know what you what you've done to give you more energy to to do greater things like what do you think stopped you going a little bit further and really seeing the stone I guess it would have been such a strong ego death that it I don't know do you know every time in life when we come against up against something super meaningful we can get an incredible amount of resistance show up

22:16you know that that ego pull back you know just wanting things to be the way we know them to be like this is this has gotten me so far this is surely the best way forward how can I let go of this version of me like what then maybe it was just it just felt too big I guess and I think that ego is until you know ego until you faced it because we live with it right and then until one day we have to stop and whatever you know whatever thing happens to make us do that or choose to do that or whatever but meeting that ego for the first time you realize how powerful they are but also that you can't squash them down you can't try and kill them

23:04because they are going to fight for their lives and it's a matter of integrating them into this new person you want and I think that's where a lot of certainly for me I try to I try to kill the ego I try to kill that part of me and it came back as a monster oh yeah sounds like you have a lot to share there with that's a lot of wisdom yeah well it happens so you've now you're now on the Atlantic going on I mean those oceans are crazy crazy you're on this boat with your family and you've done somewhere at this point did you think that you had I'm okay now everything's

23:49everything's good or did you think oh there's more work how did how did you feel oh in my in my mind as we crossing the ocean I was just transitioning from one life to the next how clever of us because like hoping on a plane and just arriving somewhere would be so difficult now we've got all this time to let go of that life and welcome in this life this is all good fresh start new country I've never been to don't know what it looks like we're gonna have just this opportunity to start clean and you know that old saying where you are there you are comes to mind now yeah because you know the Caribbean and how are you doing are you

24:39are you are you thriving or you kind of semi-thriving or you dipping right now no we were allowed in the Caribbean sorry after your that's where you landed up wasn't it so that's where we landed up and you know the the sailing it turned out to be one of the most incredible things I've ever done but also I ended up on the other side pretty much with PTSD it was not an easy crossing we had some real horrendous storms and I seen like absolutely genuinely thought we were not going to make it quite a few times so I was I was fighting this incredible trauma response in my body even now when the the wind blows more than 30 knots my face goes numb so it's pretty it was it was deep so I believed I was thriving while I was

25:29dealing with that that's how good I was at ignoring my own feelings and needs and just putting on that that brave and this is what brought me to that flatlining that's stone in my shoe one day at the clinic somebody said to me you are so calm you are always so calm I just love being by you and I for some reason the the words of this little old lady it just hit me like square in the chest like oh well you should chat to my family like this is not the truth I lose my proverbial you know frequently like I I am not that person that you see

26:18so that started something off for me and then not too long after that couple of days after that I was sitting on this balcony we had moved off the boat at that point living on land this beautiful I don't know quite lazy looking white building very beautiful garden with tropical flowers I was looking at the bay the blue water and the boats and palm trees and the blue sky and well it's actually turning pink because it was kind of sunset time it was just the most magnificent beautiful dreamy scene and I felt nothing and I thought to myself this is surely not right like how many people on this planet would see this and think that there is no more

27:03paradise like life that could exist on this earth and I feel nothing wow and this feeling nothing was this in your whole body was this in your chest like where did you feel it and how did that I mean hitting you like that I feel nothing how did you feel and yeah just talk me through that devastated to be devastated because I would have liked to think that I am a grateful person that I understand my blessings that I can yeah that that's actually it I really believed to be a very grateful person and clearly I was

27:50not because I could not feel anything I couldn't feel gratitude I couldn't feel joy I couldn't feel satisfaction I just literally couldn't muster up any feeling of genuine appreciation genuine satisfaction like nothing I was just sitting there feeling absolutely numb it's almost like disconnecting from this pain that this insatiable monster was trying to get rid of it but couldn't kind of moved out so it wasn't just the feelings that you didn't want to feel you know the pain the numbness you know the sadness of not being having a voice not being truly authentic and so what happens I guess is you disconnect from all the good feelings

28:41as well everything it's like this one big dial the emotions like when we start dialing down something we dial down everything so yeah I got so good at suppressing all the all the anger all the fury all the rage at that point the anxiety the fear the worthiness worthlessness rather all those yeah I got so good at suppressing all of that but now I had also gotten rid of my eagerness my curiosity my joy my gratitude my satisfaction and actually when I when I got to the other side of this numb moment I realized that why I had had to put on my best with

29:31suppressing what I was feeling is because I had this absolutely unbearable underlying dissatisfaction knowing at me all the time no matter what it was not good enough no matter what it was like I was salty about everything everything this little not being good enough how many women outside yeah yeah how many women feel that not good enough but they don't you know don't even know it it's the dialing down because I can't be angry I can't be dissatisfied I'm grateful look at my life you know on the outside I have everything and you know the anxiety perhaps it shows up in anxiety and disappointment but no you don't want

30:17to admit it to disappointment and so we just dial down and we dial down and in your work is something very common in middle-aged women I think it is and well I see it to be because you know we can we can engage in the lives of our children and building a family building a business everything but ourselves and you know that that disappointment a dissatisfaction this is something that I think a lot of us especially in sort of western culture will hear as children like don't be ungrateful you know finish your food because there are hungry children in Africa you know like this just millions of expressions of this thing like be grateful for

31:05what you've got do not complain so it's like a backdrop just count your blessings put on your big girl pants and carry on yeah so at this point you couldn't put on your big girl pants and carry on because now you when you know there was nothing there was no feeling at all so what did you do couldn't even put on the big girl pants because it was too damn hot to begin with honestly that's the thing that nobody talks about in the Caribbean but yeah what did I do I am I in my within myself not physically but I suppose I dropped onto my knees

31:52and just had a moment of truth and honesty and acceptance within myself and decided that I would need to take a leaf out of my own book and do more of what I help other people do and actually just own it take responsibility and own it stop I realized that I was blaming everything on the outside oh it was ugly it was horrible to realize that I was that person who blamed all the things on the outside but it's so easy to do because your ego and you know parts of you hide it from you they put it in because I can't blame people because look at what I'm doing so I've achieved and I've got over all of that I'm not blaming my parents for

32:40what happened and it's so easy to overlook that and it's so hard to be radically honest with yourself and be you know self-compassionate because at this point that self-compassion where did that come from where do you think that came from to go to go Sanna you're okay exactly as you are where do you think that came from um that would have been a lovely way for it to come it didn't come like that okay how it came is that's when oh look at that I'm getting balloons by pointing my finger that was incredible did you see them

33:28I went to see a therapist and told her that I had driven myself into this corner I had built this life that didn't feel good and I was stuck and I was you know having to live with my choices and lie in the bed I had made and you know I really just had a ugly ugly complaint session with her and the the crux of it was that I felt so stuck I'm like I'm stuck I'm stuck and I hate it and I feel like I'm like this gauged animal and it was such a useful session because it started that rage bubbling it started to come out and then I had something to work with eventually but um she just looked at me went ha the button on since you are not stuck

34:14at all I'm like what do you mean it's like well every day hundreds of people just pick up their bag and they just walk like you're not stuck you're choosing to be where you are and I was like oh that's that's that's you that's right back at you ain't that the truth ain't that the truth so um yeah she uh she clearly saw that I needed a big shake up and a shake down you know I was so firm in my belief that nothing nice was going to cut through that so she like really delivered it to me and I'm so grateful for that and that that was that that was literally the moments I'm like huh well I have been telling myself quite a few stories and this is another one of them I am not stuck I am 100 choosing to be here I am 100 creating this

35:03I'm 100 owning it now let's go and that is um and that is a very powerful um realization but for many people who get that realization one thing is realizing the other thing is actually doing something about it because parts of us you know the old way we used to do things everything else the familiar is sometimes is easier to go back to than try something different so did you carry on seeing her did you use some kind of therapy how did you and what I'm trying to see is what modalities did you use to work you through um to work you through this because there was a lot of unpacking to do a lot a lot um but again I wasn't interested in um talking about it I just

35:48wanted to move forward and move that energy in me so it was somatic breath work that I chose as my path yeah and also because I could do it on my own essentially yeah and once you started the somatic breath work how long did it take uh for you to unravel enough of all these you know all these hidden agendas and part personalities and all these things that were holding you down so that you could actually bring out all your feel some of the feelings could come back you know the rage the anger the joy the you know all of them in all their colors oh it was just a handful of sessions just a couple of months really um to get to a point where I was uh eager to discover the

36:42next pocket of energy that was still stuck inside until I was eager to see what else I had in me to work with you know when I stopped when I got over that um like apprehension or I wouldn't call it fear maybe but like that resistance and that like that that fight when it was me against the world like when that kind of dissipated enough for me to just start to appreciate everything that had brought me to to where I was when I started to genuinely appreciate my experiences genuinely appreciate all those opportunities to to learn and expand myself that didn't take very long at all and I don't think any of us ever really get anywhere we don't ever arrive somewhere

37:27there's always more but it just became uh it became a satisfying um better feeling journey yeah I suppose that that's wonderful that you could find something that worked so quickly because a lot of the woman I'm talking to you know you got the unplug the unplug was you know the monster and and then I'm actually angry great I've got something to work with and now let's move now let's move all this in our body with this matter you know some people have tried the talk therapy and then the ayahuasca and then a bit of breath work and then this and this and um and it's the whole combination you know sometimes it's not the first thing that you try that helps and I think that's sometimes hard sometimes because people go well

38:13I've tried and it didn't work what are your thoughts on that I think I was so um low that I didn't even know how to put any expectation on on anything I had no way of being disappointed because there was no expectation it was just here I am totally open show me what now because yeah I think that that's what what was really really important I wasn't I wasn't um interested in any kind of Swiss cheese healing or growth or development where I'm jumping to some perception

39:01of what I want to experience or who I want to be or you know it was like I was starting from scratch I was starting from the very beginning to get to know who I actually was so letting go of any ideas of who I want it to be where I want it to get it didn't it didn't matter what anybody else who was doing breath work looked like what they life looked like like I don't care no so you went really internally like you said earlier it was an internal job you're like I'm going in and I'm looking at everything nothing is out of bounds and I'm going to be radically honest with myself yeah yeah and how did your family deal like how were they during this process like before and after they had to describe you and your relationship and all those things

39:52well during all of my initial processes there were a few times when I came out of a journey and I found these big eyes like looking at me from the doors like is she all right because I was screaming like a banshee and just carrying on you know really really going so um you know my my children were just stepping into that teenage they were pre-teens at the time so it was an incredible time to be honest with them as well and for them to see me dive into these really deep places and see me sobbing my heart out and see me go through some really hard emotions and energies in myself

40:41so that they could see that you know you're not just all of a sudden all right once you grow up and you're an adult but we you know it it felt to me like such a gift for for my children to witness that part and I've never really asked them if they remember me like before and and now but what happened in the home is that we started laughing again I started getting silly again I started joking again we it wasn't that I arrived in a kitchen and go has nobody like backed away or cleaned up or whatever it's me again who's you know I was like this martyr victim martyr so much of my time at home because I had nothing left in the tank when I got home and now all of a sudden none of that mattered so much and we could have we could spend an extra hour around the dinner

41:31table just because we were having such a good chat and a laugh you know be late in the mornings because we end up laughing over breakfast you know that came back so I think yeah that's that's the biggest contrast I can name interesting because how many of us women have had that conversation where you walk into the kitchen and no one does anything and it's always me and and you're right it doesn't matter it doesn't matter I mean there are some things obviously everyone has to pull their weight in some way but so much of that we put value on doesn't matter and it's allowing allowing that to go as well so that's a magical as you said gift for your for your whole family and I guess for the woman listening

42:22who perhaps is not even at the stage of I'm numb you know they're not there yet but they just don't feel the same level of joy they're not laughing as much as they used to they're not perhaps enjoying the stuff that they used to as much what is your message for her to please don't blame yourself and like shower yourself in guilt and shame for you know losing it over a few breadcrumbs but just get to know your own nervous system you know all of that control it's it's all also a nervous system pattern like I would love women to just be more gentle on themselves and get to understand what's going on where these responses are coming from because we we can go on for years and feel guilty and feel like

43:12we're failing on every and it's it's not that that might not be the story we can dip below it and just take care of ourselves on a different level with more compassion and how would you start doing that for the woman out there what's the first what are some of the steps they can do to to to put into place exactly what you've suggested oh there's so many ways there's so many ways that you can do this but that it's it's just a choice point the very first thing would be to decide are you are you only going to be happy and feel well after your kids leave home or after this five-year plan is done or your company reaches this next milestone or do you accept that you could be feeling better now in the middle of all of it

44:00and if you choose yourself now while it's all going on then the right tools will just appear in your in your space if you make that intention and you make that decision the bath will open up of course I love Qigong I love tiari I love breath work but there are so many different ways that you could go about it it's just a decision comes first decision comes first and I think the other big thing is you know what you focus on you get more off so if you focus on that you're gonna it as you said is that it appears because suddenly you can you know it comes into your I can't remember what the part of the brain is but you know it's um it's uh is it the salient network picks it up and this is important and so brings it in there um is there anything

44:50else from your journey and your wisdom that you've learned that you would like to share hmm I think maybe just that you know you're not late because there comes that time also when you know it was part of being on my knees like that in my 40s was like surely I should have had all of this figured by by now you know no you're not late it's the perfect moment it's the perfect time it's all okay and you are enough breathe yes yeah oh that's that's beautiful um and so so profound

45:38and so life now um is not as much like how that monster which was obviously a big part of you how have you reassigned that very powerful part that you know created this amazing life and gave you all these opportunities what is their role now in this in this different version of you they my teachers all those moments all those monsters are my teachers every day they show up some way and like ah I see uh-huh you know so they they are very very good companions now and I'm help you know I'm obviously being able to translate some of that into um wisdom that I can maybe share with others or it's just uh yeah it's all relatability right

46:26just it's there to create connection with other people and other ways of doing life and and I think you know being radically honest because had I met you and I didn't know you and I didn't know that this was going on in the background and I saw oh my gosh she set up the school she's got this business she you know she's gone on a yacht and traveled to the Caribbean and she can just up and relocate I'll be like oh my god she's the most unbelievably brave sorted together person in the whole world and so you know this comparison thing you were talking about I'll be like oh well you know I just know where I can do what she's doing she's amazing and yet underneath it all under the vulnerability you had the same fears as probably what I do as the other woman am I good enough am I safe enough to to to be who I am is it okay this anger

47:18this rage this you know all these things instead of having only these perfect emotions of of gratitude and not what the one thing you said that really stayed with me is to genuinely feel gratitude not the pasted over oh I'm so grateful no to to feel it in every part of you because once you've felt that it's just it has an effect on your whole nervous system doesn't it it really does yeah you know what Debbie here I actually I've got something to share that people can do right now okay I was listening to listening to Michael Singer and he gave the most beautiful little tool that I would have loved to have some years ago you know that

48:05old saying about if a tree falls in the forest and nobody's there to witness it does it make a sound so we can also apply this with our our thoughts and things you know we don't have to fight the monsters we don't have to fight the thoughts it that that gratitude lives in the heart and there's this beautiful way of being able to connect with the heart no matter what's going on because you are not there to watch it anymore you are now in the heart is to imagine that your heart has a nostril just like your nose does and you just imagine this little nostril in your heart and you breathe right through it so you bypassing your mind you bypassing everything that's going on and you just go into this little nostril in your heart and you you breathe straight into the heart isn't that such a beautiful way you can immediately feel your

48:52heart oh it takes you there straight away you're straight up straight out of your head amazing and how powerful is that so powerful yeah so thank you for sharing that it's a little bit silly it feels a little bit silly to picture this nostril which i love because i like we need to be a little bit more light-hearted about it yeah yeah so i think that's incredibly powerful because it's a little bit silly it's a bit like for god's sake get out of your head you're breathing through the nostril in your heart it's it's i i love that one i'm going to be using it i'm going to be using it perfect yeah so before we go um ask a question and that is sanna if today was your last day on earth what would you do and why i would um take my family

49:40and go and have a sauna there by the wild atlantic coast jump into the freezing cold ocean that would be the first thing i would do it makes me feel so wild and so alive and so so free and yeah then i think the rest of the day would unfold from there yeah isn't that beautiful just see how it unfolds allow miracles to come in yeah create space for miracles that's it they everywhere all the time yeah everywhere even in the sixth even in the sixteen hour days they day in between it's it's very true it's it's creating space and just going back to your heart and out of your your head oh my god which we think is so powerful and it's it can be a

50:32dangerous place to be and it's also you know it's all beautiful it's your head is doing something really um useful that the thoughts have a purpose to it but yeah to be able to just take a rest and go into the heart and let the mind do its thing it's fine let the circus carry on i don't have to pay attention to it all the time it's just so nice not have to fight it or try and shape it or try and anything just go into your nostril go to your nostril beautiful it's not a thank you so much for your time today really appreciate it thank you there before having me on and i hope um there's some listeners who have really got something out of this and feel a little bit more gentle with themselves as a as a result thanks so much so as you finish listening

51:19today just notice what stayed with you just a thought or a feeling or something that you recognize in what sanna said and maybe it's something that you recognize in yourself but you haven't actually said it out loud yet and maybe just don't ignore that thank you